Last Cinematic in SoA *spoilers*

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

I seen the last movie, but I can't still figure out what was going on.

Irenicus fell into hell's lava with the demons. Now, why did the demons simply jump with him... and why did they attack him in the first place?

Why did suddenly Irenicus lose all his spell casting ability?

Who are those freaky guys talking about the main char. around the table with the classic 'BG logo' with laurels surrounding skull?

[Dampylle]

Durign they game I got the feelign Irinicus adn Bhodi were banished ro exiled. If that si so then by returnign to hell it si possable they angered the demons who threw them out.

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

Why did the demons jump into the lava then? lol, stupid tannari.  

[Dampylle]

First off we woudl need to determien the exact type of outsider as Baatezu and Tanar'ri have different qualities. the mere presence of lave woudl suggest Baatezu as the 4th level of hell (as detailed in the description of Nine hells of Baator) is a realm fo fire.

Secondly, if Irinicus did go to hell he woudl be dealign with devils (Baatezu) not demons (Tanar'ri) as demons are native to The Abyss and devils are native the The Nine Hells of Baator

Thirdly, this woudl be further emphasized by the fact that all Tanar'ri are immune to electricity and poison and resistent to cold, fire, and acid.

On the other hand Baatezu are immune to fire and poison with resistences to cold and acid. Thus if he was in hell the Baatezu woudl have no problem jumping into lave to get him as it woudl do them no harm.  

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

Abyss = Hell
BAator = Nine Hells

Hell and Baator are completley different planes. Irenicus was in hell (not nine hells) and was chased by tannari. As there are an infinite individual demons and infinite amount of speciese, which only part is described. I would not be shocked to see a fire/lava immune demon.

If you look closely, I believe no baetzu have that particular anatomy (the bhall avatr does though, exept for head).

Explain who were those freaky guys at the very end.

[Dampylle]

First you need to understand that in D&D Hell is Baator. In first edition it was simply called hell or the nine planes fo hell, the name Baator was added in second edition. Thus the way D&D was designed Baator si hell, this fact si not subjevct to interpretation and si not negotable as it si how the game was designed.

That said

Their actually are very specific listing for various demons in D&D and their varieties are not infinite. Also I can safely say having looked through every description for demons in the monster manual that none are immuen to fire. All Tanar'ri possess a resistence to fire but none are immuen to it.

Also Baetzu have very specific anatomy (that si how they are told apart) although they do share some overall traits. All Baetzu are immuen to fire.

I have not played th egame in ages so you will have to describe the "Freaky guys" in a little more detail if you wish them identified.

Finally as I have not played the game in so long indulge me with a question. the creatures shown attackign Irinicus, are they insect/crablike, how many arms do they have, did they work a sa group, did they have wings, adn finally a draconic or reptilian look to them?

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

I understand the abyss is baator. The view of hell didn't match any descript in any of the nine planes of 'hell'. I also found many sites supported by Interplay that instill the fact that the Abyss is the true hell where souls go when they do somthing naughty.

I also found i nthe same sites that there are way more tannari than baetzu. ALso, it said most types aren't discovered yet. As of the theory. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly come up with an idea of a fire immune tannari.

The freaky guys are the freaky guys. They discuseed how they should have acted long ago to defeat the bhall spawn (my char. name is Leonar. ) They wore hoods, I believe I counted around 6 or 7. They mainly kept thier heads hidden, but when they looked up, I believe I found they had no eyes (spiritual sight instead?) and suddenly I fount htat the table , in the center, holds the symbol used in BG1. The skull surrounded by laurels. Then it went to credits.

For those demons. Lizard Like with crusteatian moth parts. 4 limbs, two legs, two arms. They worked in a group, albiet un-orderly (a trait of tanari) no wings, and a reptilian look.

I bleive they are an undiscorvered speciese of Abyssal demons found in the abyss. As the abyss is much larger than Baator by infinite fold. It would not be surprising that it was a realm of fire.

Also, wh ywas there snow falling? If it was baator, it wouldn't do that.

[Dampylle]

I am only going to say this once more. In D&D terms Hell is Baator, you cannot use an interpetation fo other people to justify your claims. I already said that the description fo the fourth hell matches what you described so I fail to see hwo you can say none fo the descriptions matches. Interplay did not invent the Abyss or Baator and thus si not thr authority on what they are.

Also Inbterplay did not inbvent th eTanar'ri adn so they are not the authority on them either. As I said in th emonetser manual they are listed via traits. All Tanar'ri possess base traits among those traits is fir resistence, a fire immunity would thus be redundent.

The Fact that yoru so called "Freaky guys" showed an orderly meating woudl discount any chance of them being in the Abyss as the Tanar'ri are utterly chaotic.

Your description doesn't fit any Tanar'ri, the only Tanar'ri with ctrustacian parts has 4 arms and 2 legs but no wings. It seems your entire argument si once gain based on the fact that the developers took creative license when developing the avatar.

BAsed on all these facts I am afraid the description fo the demon will not be able to settle this. AS for their being infinite types fo Tanar'ri I already explained their are not. I can assure you their are percisley 11 types fo Demons listed in D&D and none fo them are immuen to fire. TO speculate on a creature created based on creative license is pointless as it wil have no reference for determining its origin.

By the way Tanar'ri only work in a group when a greater Tanar'ri forces them to through threats of force. Unless they were directed by a greater Tanar'ri the fact that they worked as a group woudl suggest they are Baatezu.

The end result here si that either you described them wrong or the immage they use is one of their own creation. However since they do not own the creative rights to D&D their creation is not official and does not seem to adhear to the patterns shown for demons and devils. BAsed on this the creature shown cannot be used to argue the location s it si not possable to determine with any accuracy its lineage. AS I will not accept opinions as facts your opinion that they are Tanar'ri will not suffice as they show definate Baatezu traits.

If you wish you coudl try to describe them again, otherwise I am afraid my mind is made up. Regarding the location, s I said the description you gave matches the 4rth Hell and considering in D&D terminology any reference to Hell referes to the 9 Hells of Baator th ereference alone points to the location. In D&D the abyss is shown more as a manifestation fo evil (thgus its many levels which are traditionalyh numbered at 666). Also regardign your comment about infinite numbers of Tanar'ri, I am afraid it doesn't wash. If their were that many Tanar'ri the blood war would have ended long ago.

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

Interplay is the company that SUPPORTS D&D, they INVENTED it! Check it out for yourself.  

These sites were supported by interplay, I couldn't remember the exact link (I just found it, never probably will again) I noticed that on the bottoms of the sites.

The freaky guys, I never said that they were demons, just freaky guys.

The sites also said there were way more tannari than Baaetzu, about an infinte fold. Thus new speciese wouldn't be hard to find. Besides, how do they know only 11 types exist?

The weard things is, maybe those demons were the guys that Irenicus controlled, as the spell was destroyed (Irenicus lost his spell-power) the deomns would natureally turn on him.

No way am I going to give in to that 'Creative Licence' bull. Once or twice, I can accept, but they are using that privalige way too  often. I will disagree with the statment.

I have not described them wrong. It also doesn't neccasrily mean that they were immune to fire. hey could ahve just been stupid and (like a starving animal) done anything to capture thier prey.

The immunity to fire is the only 'trait' you say is the brige between these demons and baatezu.
As see many traits posessed of tanari:
-The unorderly way they attacked Irencicus.
-The fact that you usually spawn tanari with spells, not baaetzu. Thus the demons would turn on Irenicus.
-The vast number of them. Tanari are more frequent to be found swarming than baaetzu.
-The numerous sites I ahve found (supported by Interplay) have said abyss is hell. They said that the abyss is riddled with massive lava oceans, we are not talking about fire, but we are talking about lava, magma, and molten rock. Thus the location is confirmed. Also, why would they call 'hell' the 'nine hells' as intercahgnable?

But I see your point. If lava can be viewed as fire, and Baator is really hell. Than, in my very christian view, mixed with D&D. This would explain the seven guys. They could actually be the dark seven, the rulers of baator. They were discussing that they brought the Bhall Spawn together with Irenicus, such two beings of power would be dangerous to them. If I am correct, there is also a mysterious 'bad guy' who rules every last devil in Baator, in my view this could be linked with Lucifer, the fallen arch-angle. Thus would state many of his actions. The alignment could be viewed as wrong, but at closer inspection, Lucifer is really not that bad, if he ahs the same alignment as his minions.

This would explain that Lucifer (finnaly a name can be put) was eager to draw the mortal beings of the prime material into the blood war. If he had succeded (and maybe he will) he would revert back and unleash the powers of hell back to heaven (Mt. Celestial? Arcadia? Elysium mean anything to you?). Thus, what are the demons doing attacking the devils? Are they in the very inner-most heart good beings? That they want to hold back the forces of evil as the powers of good can gain power? Are they just some other order of demons, once again ruled by a bad-guy of bad-guys. The rules may apply same here, but as I see it, this has not been found to be so. Thus with this view, we have finally unraveld the mystery of the guy behind baator. The devil himself. If you're not jewish/christian, than apply your bad god/being to this application. But as seeing christianity is the religion based when making D&D... with traits of other religions...

As I see it, could those demons be in truth a summoned band of tannari? I could be wrog that they had only 2 arms, maybe 4. Thier existance was summined by IRenicus, this is,as said, usually tanari. Thus I am not surprised that they are tanari in Baator. They are just so stupid to dive into lava.

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

I noticed that 666 is the number designated to 'beast 666' in revelation. I did some research, names proof of my research.

Also, why did the little imp, uh... what his name? um... uh... Say that Bhall had a hammer, he dropped it on big godly toe! Swore for days and days he did, and finally kicked me all the way to baator! Very bad week that...

Um... oh yes, Cespanar! lol, couldn't get the name.

Creative Licence? Comedy? Could all the way to baator just mean out of the pocket plane? It could be a very long way... being a demi-plane...

Now, I finally change me statment. I give in to the fact that hell is baator, all the facts in my view fit perfectly. Fire, 4 level of baator, the deomsn were summoned, so they could be stupid tanari.
The seven guys are explained. So now, is a mystery which had clouded the minds and knowledge of mortals and seers. The driving force behind hell, is the devil himself... I have answered a riddle to whom thousands have died trying to find out.

I am the master, call me god.

Now only one question to answer: Why did IRenicus lose his spell casting ability? Was his soul torn away when the Bhall Spawn reclaimed it? Thus without soul, no magic ability. Dunno, maybe, let's see your theory.

[Dampylle]

I am glad you finally realize that In D&D Hell si Baator.

Regarding the Summoning of Tanar'ri though, it wouldn't work. the Baatezu and Tanar'ri have been at war for let me think, oh yeah forever. the instant the Tanar'ri arrived in Baator the 9 lords woudl have sent Baatezu to kill them. There si also the fact that Exile requires structure of which the tanar'ri have none. this suggests that Irinicus used to be a Baatezu and his exile was soem form of punishment possably even for crossing one fo the 9 lords.

This fact leads to my theory, well 2 theories actually.

1.   If he had crossed one of the 9 Lords especially one fo th emore powerful of them , then perhaps they sealed his powers. I mean if they were able to remove his soul and trap him in a mortal body I don't see how sealing his magic woudl be a problem.

2.  My second theory has to do with the fact that Baator si divinely morphic, this basically means any being of lesser diety status or greater can alter Baator. IT si beleived the 9th lord Asmodius (basically the greatest fo the 9 lords) may actually have the power of a true diety, their is laos the fact that Tiamat (goddess and mother fo all chromatic dragons) resides in BAator. Due to these facts it si possabel they altered Baator in such a way that irinicus spells wouldn't function.

AS for the seven who are yet to be identified I have a theory. The generals of the Blood War on the Baatezu side are known as "The Dark Eight" they are eight pit fiends, before you simply dismiss it becasue they are pitfiends let it be known all Pit Fiends possess a spell liek ability that functions as Polymorph Self.

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

Maybe I counted eight or nine... Couldn't check...

Well, not forever, long before the Prime Material was even conceived, but it wasn't forever, just after the abyss was concieved.

Please explain about 'Exile having structure'. You sayin that Irenicus was a BAETZU!!! He was a bron an elf!

But I see your point. He was one of the most powerful arch-mages in planar history. He would be an obvious threat to the dark nine or the 8 pit fiends. So was the bhallspawn. So the dark nine decided to make them clash together, hoping that they would destroy each other. But as chronicled, one escaped the plan. He became 'too powerful' and that they should have acted 'much sooner'.

It will also be god to note that you never really saw the freaky guys faces, or body, just the hands (but of cource, , the mystery part.)

Thus, it was an attack before Irenicus, or IRenicus really did cross the dark 9. So they just exacted revenge.

I support more the dark 9, than the dark pitfiends.

[Dampylle]

Exile is a punishment or penalty, this woudl require a fixed set of limitations to incur such a penalty. Thus of the 3 races meantioned only the Elves adn Baatezu woudl impose exile, Tanar'ri woudl have just killed him

I typed that wrong, I had just awoken. I meant to say Irinicus must have crossed the Baatezu

I don't see hwo it coudl be the 9 Lords as several of them don't look remotly human and several others never leave theri strongholds unless ordered by Asmodius. The Dark 8 serve the 9 lords adn thus Asmodius so they could have been present at Asmodius' command. their si also the fact that the Dark 8 meet every 66 days. Also the Manual of Planes says that when they are not leading their armies in the Blood War the Dark 8 often appear in "Malefic Human Guise"

[Leonar - The Bankrupt Toydarian]

... So the pitlords conveined so they could plan how to kill the Bhall SPawn and IRencius? They would think that Bhall Spawn and Irenicus would have been major threats if they ever escaped the confines of hell, and reaked havoc among Baator, being immortal... This isn't good... so they deciude for them to destroy eachother, but plans went awry, the Bhall Spawn defeated IRenicus, and had the right to return to the living land.

Thus it would explain that the B.S. was 'too strong' and thus was able to escape the dark 8's plans...

[Dampylle]

Another possability has to due with other gods.

When Bhall Died Cyric inherited his portfolio. It is possable he made a deal with them to prevent the acension of Irinicus and the B.S., thus the B.S. return to the living world would have actually been planned. Allow him to return to the mortal world rather than ascend to Godhood thus allowing Cyric to keep the portfolio of Bhall. It woudl fit Cyric's nature as he is also known as "The Prince of Lies", thus manipulating the B.S. so that he/she gets what he/she wants while still allowing Cyric to keep the portfolio of Bhall woudl be well within his known behavior.